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How young is young?

Speaker: David Nunan (University of Hong Kong)
Moderator: Stephanie Taylor (Richmond Publishing)
Date: Sunday 9 May 1999

MODERATOR> Welcome everyone to the inaugural chat in richmondpark. Thanks for coming and thanks too, to David Nunan for leading this chat.

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Greetings everyone...

MODERATOR> Here goes with the first question from Susan House. What and when is the beginning for young learners? How can we establish our target language for a yl who is a beginner?

SPEAKER_David Nunan> This is an interesting question. Two key principles are 1. avoid overload, and 2 recycle. In terms of selecting key grammar vocab etc. another important principle is to select stuff that learners are familiar with in their own context, they can then map what they know in their own language onto the new language. Some years ago I worked with a team in Oman developing a syllabus and sets of materials for young learners and we started with a set of concentric circles. The inner circle contained all the language that related to the learners' immediate environment. The inner circle contained concepts from the learners' immediate environment. The next circle included concepts from a slightly wider context... e.g. the neighbourhood. Gradually the course introduced the kids to stuff that was remote from their own experience but by then they had the language to cope. This will be familiar to anyone who has read about schema theory.

MODERATOR> Is there an order of difficulty for yls? eg Does it matter if we tell a story in the past tense if the learners have had no exposure to the present?

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Another good question... Acquisition orders have been massively researched in the last 10 years although most of the research has been conducted on older learners in second language contexts. As acquisition isn't an 'all or nothing' matter, then the order is not critical. In other words, regardless of the tense you introduce, learners won't 'get it' until they've encountered the target structure in lots of different contexts and environments in many different situations. And of course, some learners will never fully master certain forms...

MODERATOR> What exactly do you mean by 'won't get it?'

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Their understanding will be partial and piecemeal...

MODERATOR> But isn't it anyway- I mean at four years old - rather partial and piecemeal in L1?

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Yes, but learning an L1 is completely different from learning an L2...

Blanca> Why will some learners never fully master certain forms?.

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Certain forms 'fossilize' or 'stabilise', these are usually communicatively redundant, or their use is subtle, e.g. my secretary, whose English is fantastic uses certain past tense forms inappropriately, e.g. she tends to overuse the past perfect. This does not obscure her meaning, but just sounds slightly odd. 'Non-native-speaker-like'

MODERATOR> Shall we move back to YLs more specifically?

Blanca> I don't see why, for yls, we should take for granted that learning L1 is completely different from L2.

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Is that a question or a comment?

Blanca> It's a question. What research / observations back up your previous comment?

SPEAKER_David Nunan> I think that there is lots of evidence to support the idea that learning an L2 is different from learning an L1. The most accessible book on the subject is by Singleton. It's called 'Language acquisition: the age factor. Although it was published 10 years ago, it's still well worth reading.

Fowlie> Isn't the word "learning" a little vague here. Isn't it more important to identify which kinds of learning are common and which different?

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Good point. One of the key question addressed by researchers has been whether instruction leads to acquisition. There are those who argue that it does and those who argue that it doesn't. However, the terms 'instruction' and 'acquisition' have been used in a kind of 'blanket' way. More recently, people such as Cathy Doughty have shown that we need to identify the actual items of interest, and also the means of instruction. In her research, she found that for learners at a particular stage, instruction 'worked', i.e. appeared to result in acquisition for some structures but not for others.

Tom Thomas> Is acquisition EVER possible without some sort of instruction? (either formal or informal ?)

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Again, we'd need to define 'instruction'. I 'acquired' basic conversational Thai by hanging around the bars in Bangkok. I wouldn't say that my interlocutors 'instructed' me. I guess it was more self-instruction. However, I wasn't able to get beyond a rudimentary level without instruction.

Lola> I agree with Tom, the point is their conditions are different, and I'm interested in how they are different and to exploit learning strategies

Tom Thomas> We shouldn't be getting bogged down in semantics - instruction, guided acquisition, facilitated learning - it's all the same. We should focus on how learning L2 is different and discuss possible strategies in general.

John Hill> (Aren't we talking about Young Learners?)

SPEAKER_David Nunan> I'd like to hear more from John about 'guided acquisition'. The important first step, I think is for learners to 'notice'. Re the research evidence... I mentioned some of it earlier - again, if you look at Singleton's stuff you'll find lots of interesting research. Certainly, the younger = better position is not supported. Whether or not it's a 'good thing' to begin a foreign language at say age 4 - 5 will depend on many factors including the amount of time the kids are given, the competence of the teacher, the quality of the resources etc..

In the last few months I've been to places as far afield as Thailand, Costa Rica, Korea and Mexico, all countries introducing English at younger and younger ages. However, in most instances, the teachers are not being trained, and adequate resources are not being provided. The danger is that the kids will be turned off English and people will conclude that it wasn't worth introducing English early when it may have had very little to do with processes of acquisition, and everything to do with the context of the learning process.

Tom Thomas> I find it difficult to accept that a child of 4 and a teen of 14, with exactly the same ability, taught under the best of conditions would turn out to have the same success of L2 acquisition.

SPEAKER_David Nunan> They won't. The evidence is pretty clear here. However if you compare the 4 year old at the age of 14 with another 14 year old who began learning at the age of 9, there will be no difference. Let me rephrase that...
The studies carried out so far have been unable to detect a difference.

Tom Thomas> This debate should focus on effectively exploiting the abilities of these younger learners.

SPEAKER_David Nunan> However, if you compare kids who begin learning AFTER puberty, with those who began pre-puberty, there appear to be clear differences
Again, you need to look carefully at where the data were collected.

Fowlie> Re: "turned off" I presume you mean in schooling. Does this mean that there is a significant difference to you when we talk about AGE whether we are talking about bilingualism in the home vs. official formal instruction?
For example. Is there research looking into acquisition at a very young age where the child is in a bilingual household vs. a child without L2 at home?

SPEAKER_David Nunan> I'm only talking about learning in school. The research on bilingualism where the languages are used in the home is quite different. There's an interesting book just published by Multilingual Matter on this work entitled 'Beyond Bilingualism'.

Fowlie> So then the emphasis for a discussion about really young learners might focus more on the pedagogy and delivery mechanisms and not whether it is possible or not "theoretically"

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Yes

MODERATOR> To promote the acquisition of l2 would it be worthwhile for parents to provide opportunities for exposure to L2 from birth if they themselves do not dominate L2? (from Pamela)

SPEAKER_David Nunan> I guess so...

MODERATOR> There are seven minutes chat time left, everyone, if you have any more questions . . .

SPEAKER_David Nunan> I have friends - as I guess some of you do - who adopt the approach of having one parent speak one language and the other parent speaking the other. Anecdotally, the experience is 'mixed'...

Blanca> But why not let the child from age 4 - 8 learn English. I've found that, on the whole, they love it. I feel the onus should be on proving that it is "a bad thing" to start learning early.

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Who said it was a bad thing?

Fowlie> Is it your belief then, that a decision to promote L2 in very young learners depends entirely on the resources in schools. If so, what is mostly lacking in Early Child. classrooms that prevent adequate L2 acquisition?

SPEAKER_David Nunan> If it's done badly it's a bad thing. And in some of the places I mentioned it's being done badly.

SPEAKER_David Nunan> If it's done well and the kids love it - great!

Tom Thomas> question - aren't we holding BACK kids by limiting their exposure to L2 using traditional course books ?

SPEAKER_David Nunan> My daughters are in an international school in Hong Kong where they have to learn two languages in addition to their L1 and their application and consequent success seems to depend so much on the skill of the teacher. They've both been totally turned off at least one of the languages they have to learn because of the approach of the teacher.

Tom Thomas> Most lacking is good teachers.

SPEAKER_David Nunan> Teacher training is the key Tom

Blanca> What is lacking in classrooms is properly trained teachers and the right materials. I would agree that books need to adopt new approaches for young learners.

Blanca> Good teachers are always the key to success - and not only in language learning

Tom Thomas> I believe we all accept good teaching as the main pre-requisite for learning

Fowlie> What has been suggested though, in an elliptical way is if you cannot provide good teaching, don't start too early or you turn off the child

MODERATOR> Thanks everyone, for participating and viewing the chat. The transcript will be published at the park in the next few days. And a big thanks to David for leading this first richmondpark chat. See you soon

SPEAKER_David Nunan> OK. Thanks everyone. I enjoyed the session. As the sun is setting here, I'm off for a gin 'n tonic