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Dreams or Reality?

Speaker: David Eastment
Moderator: Stephanie Taylor (Richmond Publishing)
Date: Monday 24 May 1999

In this moderated chat, David Eastment discussed new technologies in ELT. To what extent are they part of the long-term future of ELT?

David Eastment has taught English since the mid-seventies in Europe, Asia, South America and the Middle East. He is a freelance consultant and teacher- trainer specializing in the application of Information and Communications Technology to language education. David is the author of "The Internet and ELT" (British Council/Summertown) and co-author of "The Internet" (Oxford University Press, forthcoming). He is the editor of IATEFL Issues, the journal of the International Association of Teachers of English as a Foreign Language.

MODERATOR> Welcome chatsters! We are very pleased to welcome David Eastment tonight. He's going to lead a moderated chat for one hour on the subject of new technologies in TEFL. Please send any questions in this moderated section of the chat via the moderator, by pressing the send to moderator button. After the hour's up, you'll have the opportunity to chat in open forum, submitting questions and comments directly to each other (press send)

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Hi, everyone! I'm sitting here in sunny Saffron Walden which is near Cambridge and all agog to hear what questions you may have! I think the Internet is the most exciting development in ELT in a generation!

Jogger> In "Internet and ELT" you say that most ELT websites are little different from CALL materials. What elements make a great ELT website?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> OK, Jogger. The great ELT website is fundamentally different inasmuch as it is constantly changing! CALL programs tend to be pickled in aspic whereas a Website is a living thing!

MODERATOR> David. You were telling us something about internet before jogger asked his question....

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Yes, Mod, thanks. The Internet is truly revolutionary, not so much because of the resources it offers (though these are astonishing!) but because of the way it allows people (and students) to *communicate*! One of the most interesting things is just how many of these "discussion lists" are being set up around the world so that teachers with common interests can email each other I think there are now at least 30, just for EFL! Two were set up just last week.

Frank> Do you think it is possible to make a living working through the Web as a teacher/web page designer for businesses wishing to work with English speaking countries etc.?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> I don't know that it's possible to make a living *yet* but I think it will be within 18 months. Maybe sooner. There are at least 10 Internet schools for EFL at the moment many of them looking for teachers!

Bob> How do you find out about the discussion lists?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> OK, Bob! One way to get a list of Lists is to go to Tile.Net or www.liszt.com. But these just list the major ones. For the do-it-yourself ones, you need to register with www.egroups.com or www.onelist.com and of course they're all free! Maybe the best way to get started is to join one of the big, well-established lists, like TESL-L which now has 30,000 teacher-members around the world!

MODERATOR> You were mentioning internet schools. Here's a related question: Do Internet language courses have a future?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Internet language courses have a big future but only if they get a *lot* better! At the moment, they have about the same level of interactivity as CALL programs in the early eighties. None of them have yet begun to explore what the Web has to offer (well, not many of them, anyway!).

MODERATOR> Are there any 'good' ones?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Well, in terms of design, www.englishtown.com and www.netlanguages.com are very professional. But I must admit, students I have shown them to tend to find them a bit boring. But of course it's early days yet!

MODERATOR> One other question on web sites from sor.

sor> I'm preparing my student's for the Cambridge First Certifcate exams. Are there any web pages you would recommend?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> For First Certificate? (Sound of brain whirring) The big American sites (eg Dave's ESL Cafe) are no good for this, obviously so I'd try picking up links from some of the UK schools. Pilgrims, Eurocentres, Bell, and International House (Aardaark) all have some links. Or go to the Internet TESL Journal and search for FCE - they have 4000 links!

MODERATOR> A comment from Scott on internet courses..

Scott> David, it may be true that internet schools are pretty traditional in terms of their content, but since they are marketing directly to the student, is this surprising. After all, the best selling EFL book of all time (I'm thinking of Murphy's English Grammar in Use) is as traditional as you can get. is the Internet EFL student so sophisticated?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> No, Scott, it is not at all surprising. And maybe they are right, maybe this is what the market actually wants. But I can't help feeling that it could be a bit more interesting! What about the Grammar Safari approach pioneered by (oh, dear, is it Univ. of Illinois?) . . . . yes, LinguaCenter, Illinois: http://deil.lang.uiuc.edu/web.pages/grammarsafari.html

T.S.> Many teachers actually see internet as a source of extra grammar practice material. How can we wean them onto what the net has to offer?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> The process of awareness-raising is *exactly* what trainers should be engaged in rather than narrow technical training in "How to use a Browser".

T.S.> I agree.

Jogger> Wouldn't it be a terrible shame to make an Internet version of Murphy's Grammar?!

SPEAKER_David Eastment> I'd point them towards the better new dictionary sites or the use of the Web as a resources for words words words, and of course all the authentic materials.

MODERATOR> Questions from JL, re chats:..

JL> How about chats? I mean lists of chats and chat areas?

MODERATOR> Any advice?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> I have a bit of problem with chats, I have to say. Students love them, but they can be hard to control! I think they work best when the students know quite well who they are chatting to and maybe the best way to use them is as a follow up to a conventional Web-and-email based project between different classes. I would avoid the public areas like the "Irish Pub" and the like because of the strange people who lurk there! But Dave's ESL Cafe and other sites have "protected" areas.

MODERATOR> How about for teachers? Any good chat rooms?

Bob> Do you think chats like these have a future?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> The best place for teachers always used to be the Netoric Cafe. But I don't know if it's still operating. Does anyone else? It's part of SchMOOze.

MODERATOR> Schmooze?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Bob asked if chats like these have a future. Well, a year ago I would have said "no" because I thought they would be overtaken by new technologies but they are remarkably popular, and remarkably long-lived!

JL> Directed chats like this one can be very good I think.

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Sorry, the Moderator was asking about SchMOOze. It's a great place for directed chat. Based at CUNY, City University of New York. Lots of rooms, activities and Wizards who act rather like our own moderator! The best thing with all these Chat rooms and MOOs, though, is to get a proper software "client", otherwise the screen can just be chaos!

MODERATOR> We should try it out. Let's move on. a question from Andrés Antolín

Andrés Antolín > To what extent do you think a kid (4 years onwards) can use ICT to learn a foreign language without any help from the teacher? In other words, can a child be on his/her own with a computer to learn a language?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> With a computer, yes, on the Internet, no! The Internet is just *too* dangerous for children below the age of, I don't know, 12? Unless you exclude them from most of it with special software. But the computer, yes - there are some great kids programs on CD-ROM, for example.

MODERATOR> The second part of Andres' question is whether internet is better for consolidating and revising language than as a first contact with it?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Well, Andres, I tend to think that CALL software is better for consolidating and that the Internet is good for that encounter with real, unexpected, unpredictable language. Which is after all what language is all about! But I grant you, there are problems in using it this way. But not insoluble ones, if you have a good teacher who grades the task rather than the language.

MODERATOR> There are sites with parent help sections for language play/instruction on the net, no? For kids, I mean.

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Yes, Mod, there are. But one of the real problems with using the Net with students is keeping them "on task". Unless you are careful, they disappear down all sorts of network holes!

Jogger> I've heard a lot about MOOs and MUDs, but I'm still a bit confused..Tell us more, David.

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Jogger, they are just multi-user sites. They've been around for years, and a good deal of experience has been built up in how to use them. Some, like SchMOOze, are just for EFL. Others are the basis for universities like Diversity University (www.du.org)

SPEAKER_David Eastment> But to get the best from them you need more than text. Some of them have audio, and virtual reality (VRML), and conference facilities, and whiteboards.

MODERATOR> Is that OK, Jogger?

Jogger> Some people say they're the future of Net teaching. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Yes, I would. You only have to look at, for example, the Merlin site at the University of Hull to see the sort of richness that can be achieved. But the answer is NOT the technology, of course, but the people who use it!

Lola> But it is very complicated to get skilled in them.

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Yes, Lola, and this is the **real** problem! We still tend to think that you train once, and that's it whereas the new technology means a real commitment to lifelong learning of new skills.

Bob> At the last chat, someone couldn't get into the chat area and complained that as a teacher they were now expected to deal with new technology as well as teaching. Do you think it is now essential for teachers to be able to handle all this?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Yes, Bob, I really do. Just as a few years ago they were expected to handle audio, and then video and then wordprocessing. And the Internet is AT LEAST as important as these!

MODERATOR> What's the best first step to train teachers with these on-line technologies? (TS)

SPEAKER_David Eastment> The crucial thing is to identify the real skills a teacher needs what I like to call "core skills". It's easy to waste a lot of time on relatively trivial technical things. The real skills needed are Searching, Evaluating, Controlling the Material and Integrating into Lessons (sorry to sound so pompous!

MODERATOR> What do you mean by controlling the material? (TS)

SPEAKER_David Eastment> I mean (at very least) the ability to cut and paste from a Web page to a WP but increasingly I mean being able to write one's own Web pages and probably being able to create one's own Web based exercises.

Jogger> I believe the key is to have everyone, especially teachers, making their own web sites.

SPEAKER_David Eastment> I wouldn't disagree, Jogger, given that it is so easy these days. But you can't force them. You have to excite them!

Stephanie: Wow!

David Eastment: Thank you, Steph!

Lola> At the moment, in my point of view we can just know them but not to use them in our classes

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Lola, I can't really comment on your circumstances in Spain, but I would say that these things change VERY quickly and I would be surprised if you were not using them sooner than you think!

MODERATOR> It's true that many teachers working in primary and secondary schools here see the incorporation of on-line elements into their teaching as 'far off'.

Sandra> What hardware should schools be looking to buy to prepare the way?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Hardware is a long way down my list of priorities, Sandra, way behind "fleshware" and software, but the real issue with hardware is not the WHAT but the WHERE. Any modern computer will do, really, just about. The question is, do you put them all in one room? Or in clusters? Or on trolleys? Or in individual classrooms? or in the corridor? That's what makes the difference!

Sandra> What would you recommend?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Oh, well, Sandra, if I were put on the spot I would go for at least a Pentium 2, 300+ MHz, lots of RAM, at least 32 MB, and a GOOD monitor but be prepared for all hardware to be almost instantly out-of-date!

Scott> David - change of tack - how far off is the day when anyone will be able to download the Bill Gates online English course, thereby driving all your homegrown materials and web-sites into oblivion?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Well, Scott, I don't know if you've seen the new Encarta English course on CD-ROM? It's a quality product, with 3D, speech recognition, good pedagogy but it's still just a computer. Languages are learnt by interaction with real peopleand will be for at least another 10 years (I predict).

MODERATOR> Has that answered your question, Scott?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> I would imagine the Encarta Interactive English Course will be online really soon but it won't affect the school. We need communities!

MODERATOR> One other interesting question we could finish this moderated section with is from José Luis.

JL> Any ideas on the future of DVD-Rom?

SPEAKER_David Eastment> JL, it is getting increasingly popular, isn't it? After a very slow start. But it is still a limited medium Just a giant CD-ROM. The only advantage over the Internet is that it works faster!

MODERATOR> Here's a closer from Scott with apologies for the delay

Scott> Could you define what you mean by "good pedagogy" (in a word or two)

SPEAKER_David Eastment> Ow, Scott! That is what we call a "hospital pass" - the sort of pass in rugby that finishes off by incapacitating one of the players! I suppose at least one meaning of good pedagogy is teaching which is "in tune" with the learners needs and aspirations. And this is precisely why Internet schools are not as good as the real thing and probably never will be!

MODERATOR> Well,. I think we should throw the floor open (if that's the correct jargon) to open chat among yourselves. Let me thank you all for joining us this evening - and particular warm thanks to David for leading this interesting chat. A transcript will be posted in the park.

SPEAKER_David Eastment> I need an aspirin or maybe a beer! Thanks to everyone. I really enjoyed that