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Issues and problems with Secondary Learners

Speaker: Lynn Durrant
Moderator: Jenny Johnson
Date: Saturday 25 March 2000

Factors such as class size, individual differences, imposed curriculums etc often adversely effect a positive learning environment. This chat aims to answer questions from teachers of secondary learners who would like advice on problem areas such as motivation, planning classes, teaching ideas, large classes, mixed ability etc.

Lynn Durrant is Head of Young Learners at International House Barcelona, working with teachers of students in the 6 to 17 age range. She is also a tutor on the Cambridge CELTA and CELTYL teacher training courses, and an assessor for Cambridge Young Learners schemes. Lynn has given sessions on Young Learners at conferences all over the world.

MODERATOR> Hi everybody! Hope you're all comfortable - the chat is beginning. We have Lynn Durrant from the IH Barcelona Young Learners Centre here. Welcome Lynn.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Hello Jenny.

MODERATOR> OK I'm sure Lynn has a lot of answers to your questions.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> The problem for a lot of people is that they have hundreds of questions but when you can ask them it is often difficult to know exactly what to ask in order to get an answer that helps everybody in their different teaching situations.

MODERATOR> Yes, that's true. Welcome, Paketo! Where are you chatting from?

paketo> Athens Greece. I'm DOS at a school here.

MODERATOR> Paketo has some questions Lynn . . .

paketo> There are many changes in the Greek high school system and the kids are stressed out. How can you wake students up?

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> In what way do you mean?

paketo> You can be the best teacher in the world but you still lose them at 9.30pm at night. I mean it's a race for diplomas. Greek teenagers feel made to learn.

Lynn Durrant> So does that mean at your school too that they have to take lots of exams? Could you lessen the load a little for them by not doing so many or at least talk to the parents because the problem is often their mums and dads wanting more from the children and this puts them under a lot of pressure. A meeting with the parents explaining the situation or creating a once a week exam free orientated lesson?

paketo> I meet parents 4 times a year. They often ask "Will he pass?" not "How's his English?"

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> And what do you do or talk about?

paketo> I talk about the things that really matter like their ability, weaknesses etc

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> What do you think about the idea of creating a special stress-free lesson once a week

paketo> Good idea.... will we do yoga? Sorry joking!

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Maybe! How about just talking to them, a conversation class.

MODERATOR> Lena has a question about oral exams.

Lena> Lynn I have great difficulty assessing oral performance in oral exams. Frequently I feel I have not been fair but rather too strict. How could I overcome this and still assess without being unfair?

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Hi Lena. Would you have time to record the exams as you are doing them so you can listen again?

paketo> good idea

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> I know how you feel Lena, this happens to me and I recorded some of them to judge my assessment. Lena, another idea could be to separate the assessment criteria into separate exams and for each exam just assess one thing e.g. Exam One, fluency, Exam two, grammar and then it is easier for you to assess, especially as some students have varied abilities in different areas. Then not a whole lesson, just certain times within a lesson that the students know about and can look forward to. The topic can be something within the programme.

paketo> Lynn do you have any comments on pair/groupwork in monolingual environments? They just don't seem to work as well as in Multilingual groups.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Yes, this is a question teachers always ask me. I think our expectations are often too high. We should try only a few minutes at a time in pair work. I think as teachers we expect them to work in pairs too long. I usually have them working together for two or three minutes at a time and do this on a regular basis. They might be in pairs throughout a lesson for 15 minutes but not at the same time.

paketo> Some people just can't sustain a 'roleplay' for more than a second. Especially pubescent Greek teenagers!!!

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Maybe if you get them to do it all together at the same time. How about having one pair doing it for the class?

hocine_dz> Hello everybody, I am from Algeria. My question is how to raise motivation in overcrowded classes.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> First, try keeping your expectations on motivation to short term only, lesson by lesson. Then work on more ways to actually separate the class into passive and active workers. Use one part of the group to do productive skills, and the other half can be doing something more receptive. It might be hard if your classrooms are small.

hocine_dz> I mean English is not as important as other subjects in our country.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> It probably isn't here either.

MODERATOR> There's a chat on Saturday 15th April at richmondpark with Michael Downie on motivation, Hocine_dz!

Rita> Hi, I'm from Argentina, and our problem mainly is motivation in overcrowded classes, as well.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Hi Rita. Yes this seems to be a problem everywhere. I think the first thing we have to do is not, as I said before, expect too much from them. Why should they smile? They often have a fairly rough time in general. We need to concentrate on short term and hopefully long-term motivation will happen if the kids enjoy themselves lesson from lesson.

paketo> You have to keep changing activities. I use video segments, free conversation, political debate, the internet, to try and keep them motivated.

Rita> basically, it has also got to do with teachers' attitude, we have to admit.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Yes, these are good ideas but the first thing is that we want them to learn. It's the teacher's attitude that is important at the beginning, not the children's.

hocine_dz> Our classrooms are not equipped with videos. So how to get them actually interested in English?

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> First by finding out what they are interested in their own language. You can then transfer this to English. The subject matter is vital.

MODERATOR> On a slightly different topic . . .

Roca> I am Mariano Roca and I am joining you from Lleida

MODERATOR> Hi Mariano, any questions?

Roca> Could I have your views on the fact that it is at secondary education level when students have the possibility to reinforce their English or to expand it, as opposed to having those extra hours to learn it properly at an earlier stage in their lives?

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> I think the earlier they start the better in many cases. But the problem there is that they start at an early age then get bored. I think the problem at secondary level is that they already have enough to do without extra classes. The pressure is really on at secondary level and this is something we need to remember. The credit system here in Spain seems to be fairly problematic as many teachers are not sure how or in which way to cover the material.

Roca> Should this pressure in Secondary be transferred to primary level? After all we do not learn our own language when we are in our teens.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> I think we learn the basics when we are at primary level. Most learners achieve better results at primary level because of certain factors:
1. There is less pressure to perform
2. The motivation is there.
3. Everything is new and the child has the freedom of choice.
Once they get to secondary most learning is performance orientated.

paketo> Do you think Lynn that some people are cut out for language learning and others aren't?

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> No, I think some teachers might be cut out for teaching and others not. I really think the problem is that we are under so much pressure to complete the books or the programmes we are told to finish within a course that we don't get time to actually study our students and find out what kind of learning strategies are the best for each child. It would be a real shame if we put the pressure on them too at primary level.
Roca> But those "basics" should be perfect as much as possible. Basic problems are easier to correct then.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Okay, but remember that it takes a long time to learn a language correctly. When we as English speakers are still learning new words, can we expect perfection? What they need is the time to recycle more.

MODERATOR> Hello Anuskis! Any questions for Lynn?

Anuskis> Why do you think that when students reach Secondary, after learning English for 3 or 4 years, they seem not to know anything and we have to start from scratch?

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Could it be that their past learning experience wasn't very helpful? I think we need to push more to find out exactly what they do know and be more patient.

MODERATOR> Angelica in Brazil contacted us before the chat with several points. She says one very common problem is managing the process of interaction between students.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Yes, this came up before.

MODERATOR> Often students of that age group tend to be offensive and aggressive to each other in classroom and this is quite harmful for the learning process.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> I think there are several answers to this: Working together in short slots, no longer than 4/5 minutes and possibly in front of the teacher or at least the teacher walking round "on patrol". Try doing more receptive work and also establish a set of rules with the parents' involvement. They need to be part of this. No-one wants to admit that their child is naughty but if you have the parents on your side they might be able to help more. I think that you need to have short regular meetings both with parents and pupils.

MODERATOR> Do you think it should be solved with the help of a psychologist?

paketo> We got a psychologist to speak to parents last year with some success.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Having outside help can be helpful but with the parents' consent. Paketo, how did this help?

paketo> 5% of parents turned up. We were preaching to the converted so to speak.

Anuskis> Each school has a psychologist in Spain.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Yes, Anuskis, but this is or can be a fairly drastic move, and it doesn't necessarily help the teacher on a day-to-day basis. It can cause friction between the teacher and pupil.

Anuskis> I know, I have never asked him for help. I can motivate my students myself without the need of a psychologist.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Yes, actually I think that that is sometimes our job . . . . being psychologists.

Anuskis> A teacher is a psycologist, a guide, a clown, an entertainer, a father/mother, a friend, a ...

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Some parents can be very difficult. That's why it's vital to get them on our side. I always start a meeting with them by saying that I realise that they know more about their child than I and that they are the ones who can help me!

paketo> Lynn I think we have to avoid making the study of English like a normal lesson that they are used to. Turn it into an 'experience' from which they take what they need and stop being obsessed by certificates. Assessment yes...targets yes.

Anuskis> I think that if you design an entertaining activity the students can't possibly refuse to do it, they will love to do it

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Yes, and if they see that you enjoy being there with them and that you have taken time to create an activity for them they appreciate it. But at the end of the day we have to remember that we are there to do a job, and that's to teach English.

MODERATOR> I'm really sorry but the hour is up! It went really fast, didn't it?

paketo> Thanks for your comments Lynn.

Anuskis> I think you must love what you are doing and then your students will feel it and will love it as well.

SPEAKER_Lynn Durrant> Thanks everybody for asking lots of questions, let's hope we can do it again!

Roca> Thank you and bye.